{"id":274,"date":"2017-08-28T23:42:53","date_gmt":"2017-08-28T23:42:53","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wordpress.library.illinois.edu\/scholarlycommunications\/?post_type=podcast&p=274"},"modified":"2026-01-29T16:52:17","modified_gmt":"2026-01-29T16:52:17","slug":"sara-bensons-take-on-gsu-copyright-case","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wordpress.library.illinois.edu\/scholarlycommunications\/podcast\/sara-bensons-take-on-gsu-copyright-case\/","title":{"rendered":"Sara Benson\u2019s Take on GSU Copyright Case"},"content":{"rendered":"

\"SaraYou are tuned in to copyright chat.<\/p>\n

Copyright chat is a podcast dedicated to discussing important copyright matters. Host Sara Benson the copyright librarian from the University of Illinois converses with experts from across the globe to engage the public with rights issues relevant to their daily lives.<\/p>\n

Transcript:<\/strong><\/p>\n

Welcome<\/span> to<\/span> copyright<\/span> chat.<\/span>\u00a0Today<\/span> I<\/span> actually<\/span> do<\/span> not<\/span> have<\/span> a<\/span> guest<\/span> with<\/span> me.<\/span>\u00a0Today<\/span> I\u2019d<\/span> like<\/span> to<\/span> speak<\/span> with<\/span> you<\/span> a<\/span> bit<\/span> about<\/span> the<\/span> recent<\/span><\/span>\u00a0Eleventh<\/span> Circuit<\/span> oral<\/span> arguments<\/span> in<\/span> the<\/span> case<\/span> of<\/span> Cambridge<\/span> University<\/span> Press<\/span> versus<\/span>\u00a0Patton<\/span><\/em>.<\/span><\/p>\n

If<\/span> you\u2019re<\/span> not<\/span> familiar<\/span> with<\/span> the<\/span> case<\/span> it<\/span> has<\/span> been<\/span> ongoing<\/span> for<\/span> around<\/span> eleven<\/span> years.<\/span>\u00a0It<\/span> started<\/span> when<\/span> Georgia<\/span> State<\/span> University<\/span> adopted<\/span> a<\/span> policy<\/span> which<\/span> according<\/span> to<\/span> a<\/span> professor<\/span> who<\/span> testified<\/span> at<\/span> trial<\/span> routinely<\/span> allowed<\/span> professors<\/span> to<\/span> post<\/span> digital<\/span> copies<\/span> of<\/span> excerpts<\/span> consisting<\/span> of<\/span> up<\/span> to<\/span> twenty<\/span> percent<\/span> of<\/span> the<\/span> work<\/span> without<\/span> obtaining<\/span> a<\/span> license<\/span> from<\/span> the<\/span> copyright<\/span> holder<\/span> on<\/span> course<\/span> web<\/span> pages.<\/span>\u00a0In<\/span> 2009,<\/span>\u00a0the<\/span> university<\/span> adopted<\/span> a<\/span> new<\/span> copyright<\/span> policy<\/span> requiring<\/span> a<\/span> fair<\/span> use<\/span> checklist<\/span> to<\/span> be<\/span> completed<\/span> before<\/span> uploading<\/span> e-reserves<\/span>.<\/span> The<\/span> university<\/span> was<\/span> sued<\/span> by<\/span> Cambridge<\/span> University<\/span> Press<\/span> Oxford<\/span> University<\/span> Press<\/span> and<\/span>\u00a0Sage<\/span> publications<\/span> with<\/span> funding<\/span> provided<\/span> by<\/span> the<\/span>\u00a0Copyright<\/span>\u00a0Clearance<\/span>\u00a0Center<\/span>.<\/span><\/p>\n

In the\u00a0<\/span>original<\/span>\u00a0district<\/span>\u00a0court<\/span> opinion<\/span> from<\/span>\u00a02012,<\/span>\u00a0the<\/span> district<\/span> court<\/span> found<\/span> that<\/span> GSU<\/span>\u00a0prevailed<\/span> on<\/span> all<\/span> but<\/span> 5\u00a0<\/span>of<\/span> the<\/span>\u00a099<\/span>\u00a0copyright<\/span> claims<\/span> which<\/span> were<\/span> at<\/span> issue<\/span> when<\/span> the<\/span> trial<\/span> began<\/span>.<\/span><\/p>\n

The<\/span> district<\/span> court<\/span> found<\/span> that<\/span> the<\/span> copying<\/span> was<\/span> mostly<\/span> justified<\/span> by<\/span> fair<\/span> use<\/span> except<\/span> in<\/span> those<\/span> 5\u00a0<\/span>instances<\/span>.<\/span> That<\/span> holding<\/span> was<\/span> appealed<\/span> to<\/span> the E<\/span>leventh<\/span> Circuit<\/span> Court<\/span> of<\/span> Appeals<\/span> where<\/span> the<\/span> case<\/span> was<\/span>\u00a0reversed<\/span> and<\/span>\u00a0remanded.<\/span>\u00a0The<\/span>\u00a0Eleventh<\/span> Circuit<\/span> found<\/span> that<\/span> not<\/span> enough<\/span> weight<\/span> was<\/span> given<\/span> to<\/span> the<\/span> fourth<\/span> factor,<\/span> which<\/span> loomed<\/span> large<\/span> according<\/span> to<\/span> the<\/span> court<\/span>\u00a0in<\/span> cases<\/span> of<\/span> non-<\/span>transformative<\/span> Fair<\/span> Use.<\/span> It<\/span> also<\/span> found<\/span> that<\/span> the<\/span> approach<\/span> of<\/span> the<\/span> district<\/span> court<\/span> giving<\/span> each<\/span> factor<\/span> of<\/span> fair<\/span> use<\/span> equal<\/span> weight<\/span> was<\/span> not<\/span> warranted<\/span>.<\/span> The<\/span>\u00a0district<\/span>\u00a0court<\/span> on<\/span> remand<\/span> again<\/span> found<\/span> in<\/span> favor<\/span> of<\/span> G<\/span>S<\/span>U<\/span> noting<\/span> on<\/span> further<\/span> consideration<\/span> that<\/span> there<\/span> was<\/span> little<\/span> evidence<\/span> of<\/span> lost<\/span> market<\/span> value<\/span> for<\/span> the<\/span> licensing<\/span> in<\/span> those<\/span> cases\u2013<\/span> in<\/span> other<\/span> words\u2013<\/span> looking<\/span> at<\/span> the<\/span> entire<\/span> marketplace<\/span> for<\/span> licensing<\/span> the<\/span> plaintiffs<\/span> are<\/span> making<\/span> very<\/span> little<\/span> proceeds on the works at issue<\/span>.<\/span>\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

The<\/span>\u00a0Eleventh<\/span> Circuit<\/span> just<\/span> held<\/span> oral<\/span> arguments<\/span> and<\/span> took<\/span> issue<\/span> again<\/span> with<\/span> the<\/span> findings<\/span> of<\/span> the<\/span> district<\/span> court<\/span> but<\/span> did<\/span> not<\/span> issue<\/span> its<\/span> opinion<\/span> in<\/span> the<\/span> case<\/span> just<\/span> yet.<\/span>\u00a0In<\/span> the<\/span> oral<\/span> arguments<\/span> the<\/span> court<\/span> took<\/span> issue<\/span> with<\/span> how<\/span> the<\/span> lower<\/span> court<\/span> attempted<\/span> to<\/span> address<\/span> the<\/span> fourth<\/span> factor<\/span> and<\/span> again<\/span> stressed<\/span> that<\/span> a<\/span> non-<\/span>transformative<\/span> cases<\/span> the<\/span> fourth<\/span> factor<\/span> is<\/span> more<\/span> important<\/span>.<\/span><\/p>\n

Here<\/span> are<\/span> some<\/span> of<\/span> my<\/span> thoughts<\/span> about<\/span> the<\/span>\u00a0Eleventh<\/span> Circuit<\/span> oral<\/span> arguments<\/span>.<\/span><\/p>\n

Do<\/span> I<\/span> think<\/span> this<\/span> case<\/span> is<\/span> likely<\/span> to<\/span> be<\/span> remanded<\/span> again?<\/span><\/strong>\u00a0Yes,<\/span> sadly<\/span> I<\/span> think<\/span> so.<\/span>\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

But<\/span> will<\/span> the<\/span> ultimate<\/span> outcome<\/span>\u00a0likely change?<\/span><\/strong>\u00a0 <\/span>I<\/span> don\u2019t<\/span> think<\/span> so.\u00a0<\/span>\u00a0The<\/span> district<\/span> court<\/span> analysis<\/span> has<\/span> each<\/span> time<\/span> been<\/span> thorough<\/span> and<\/span> fair<\/span> and<\/span> has<\/span> found<\/span> in<\/span> favor<\/span> of<\/span> GSU<\/span>.<\/span><\/p>\n

Should<\/span> the<\/span> fourth<\/span> factor<\/span> be<\/span> more<\/span> important<\/span> in<\/span> all<\/span> non-<\/span>transformative<\/span> fair<\/span> use<\/span> cases<\/span> as<\/span> suggested<\/span> by<\/span> the<\/span>\u00a0Eleventh<\/span><\/strong> Circuit?<\/strong>\u00a0<\/span>\u00a0In<\/span> my<\/span> opinion<\/span> definitely<\/span> not.<\/span>\u00a0Each<\/span> case<\/span> of<\/span> fair<\/span> use<\/span> must<\/span> be<\/span> evaluated<\/span> on<\/span> its<\/span> own<\/span> and<\/span> the<\/span> factors<\/span> weighed<\/span> appropriately<\/span> in<\/span> the<\/span>\u00a0old<\/span>\u00a0course<\/span> pack<\/span> cases<\/span> the<\/span> copying<\/span> was<\/span> made<\/span>\u00a0not<\/span> by<\/span> individual<\/span> professors<\/span> but<\/span> by<\/span> copy<\/span> shops<\/span> like<\/span> Kinko\u2019s<\/span> who<\/span> are<\/span> making<\/span> a<\/span> profit<\/span> off<\/span> of<\/span> the<\/span> sale<\/span> of<\/span> the<\/span> materials.<\/span>\u00a0 Those<\/span> cases<\/span> are<\/span> easily<\/span> distinguished<\/span> from<\/span> the<\/span> case<\/span> at<\/span> hand<\/span> where<\/span> individual<\/span> professors<\/span> are<\/span> making<\/span> the<\/span> copies<\/span> for<\/span> purposes<\/span> of<\/span> nonprofit<\/span> educational<\/span> use<\/span> and<\/span> are<\/span> accepting<\/span> no<\/span> payment<\/span> whatsoever.<\/span>\u00a0 Thus,<\/span> if<\/span> every<\/span> case<\/span> of<\/span> non-<\/span>transformative<\/span> fair<\/span> use<\/span> were<\/span> treated<\/span> the<\/span> same<\/span> it<\/span> would<\/span> be<\/span> much<\/span> more<\/span> difficult<\/span> to<\/span> distinguish<\/span> these<\/span> cases.\u00a0<\/span>\u00a0But,<\/span> as<\/span> I<\/span> noted,<\/span> they<\/span> are<\/span> very<\/span> different<\/span> and<\/span> judges<\/span> and<\/span> juries<\/span> need<\/span> to<\/span> have<\/span> the<\/span> flexibility<\/span> to<\/span> analyze<\/span> the<\/span> case<\/span> at<\/span> hand<\/span> and<\/span> not<\/span> be<\/span> burdened<\/span> by<\/span> strict<\/span> rules<\/span> such<\/span> as<\/span> those<\/span> proposed<\/span> by<\/span> the<\/span>\u00a0Eleventh<\/span> Circuit<\/span>.<\/span><\/p>\n

What<\/span> about<\/span> the<\/span> way<\/span> the<\/span>\u00a0Court<\/span> determined<\/span> whether<\/span> the<\/span> marketplace<\/span> would<\/span> be<\/span> substantially<\/span> harmed<\/span> by<\/span> the<\/span> copying (was it fair?)<\/span><\/strong>\u00a0 In\u00a0<\/span>this<\/span> instance<\/span> I<\/span> think<\/span> the<\/span> district<\/span> court<\/span> was<\/span> completely<\/span> fair. T<\/span>he<\/span> court<\/span> looked<\/span> at<\/span> the<\/span> evidence<\/span> over<\/span> the<\/span> past<\/span> five<\/span> years<\/span> of<\/span> the<\/span> total<\/span> licensing<\/span> paid<\/span> for<\/span> each<\/span> book<\/span> copied. T<\/span>his<\/span> is<\/span> eminently<\/span> reasonable.\u00a0<\/span>\u00a0The<\/span> attorney<\/span> for<\/span> the<\/span> publishers<\/span> argued<\/span> that<\/span> this<\/span> is<\/span> like<\/span> a<\/span> new<\/span> licensing<\/span> marketplace<\/span> where<\/span> publishers<\/span> could<\/span> be<\/span> analogized<\/span> to<\/span> streaming<\/span> services<\/span> for<\/span> music<\/span> for<\/span> instance<\/span> how<\/span> could<\/span> you<\/span> anticipate<\/span> back<\/span> in\u00a0<\/span>say<\/span> 1999<\/span>\u00a0that<\/span> there<\/span> is<\/span> soon<\/span> be<\/span> availability<\/span> of<\/span> streaming<\/span> licenses<\/span> for<\/span> music.\u00a0<\/span>\u00a0There\u2019s\u00a0<\/span> a<\/span> major<\/span> flaw<\/span> to<\/span> that<\/span> argument\u2013<\/span> e-reserve services<\/span>\u00a0have<\/span> been<\/span> around<\/span> for<\/span> years<\/span> if<\/span> there<\/span> was<\/span> a<\/span> harm<\/span> to<\/span> the<\/span> market<\/span> we<\/span> would<\/span> see<\/span> it<\/span> in<\/span> the<\/span> fees<\/span> paid<\/span> to<\/span> the<\/span> publishers<\/span> and<\/span> their<\/span> total<\/span> licensing<\/span> for<\/span> each<\/span> book.<\/span> Presumably<\/span> earlier<\/span> on<\/span> the<\/span> fees<\/span> would<\/span> be<\/span> the<\/span> greatest<\/span> and<\/span> the<\/span> longer<\/span>\u00a0e-<\/span>reserves<\/span> were<\/span> around<\/span> the<\/span> fees<\/span> would<\/span> get<\/span> smaller<\/span> and<\/span> smaller<\/span> as<\/span> more<\/span> professors<\/span> put<\/span> materials<\/span> on<\/span> course<\/span> web<\/span> pages<\/span> without<\/span> paying<\/span> licensing fees<\/span>.<\/span> No<\/span> such<\/span> trajectory<\/span> was<\/span> demonstrated<\/span> by<\/span> the<\/span> publishers. I<\/span>n<\/span> fact<\/span> many<\/span> of<\/span> the<\/span> books<\/span> that<\/span> they<\/span> excerpted<\/span> from<\/span> had<\/span> very<\/span> few<\/span> licensing<\/span> fees<\/span> at<\/span> all<\/span> or<\/span> zero<\/span> in<\/span> many<\/span> years.\u00a0<\/span>\u00a0What<\/span> that<\/span> means<\/span>\u00a0is<\/span> rather<\/span> than<\/span> supplanting<\/span> the<\/span> marketplace<\/span> for<\/span> these<\/span> book<\/span> excerpts<\/span> there<\/span> is<\/span> indeed<\/span> no<\/span> market<\/span>place<\/span> for<\/span> these<\/span> books<\/span> excerpts<\/span> that\u2019s<\/span> being<\/span> supplanted<\/span> at<\/span> all.<\/span>\u00a0Mostly,\u00a0<\/span> professors<\/span> are<\/span> either<\/span> requiring<\/span> students<\/span> to<\/span> buy<\/span> the<\/span> entire<\/span> book,<\/span> which<\/span> was<\/span> demonstrated<\/span> in<\/span> the<\/span> license<\/span> in<\/span> the<\/span> fees<\/span> paid<\/span> for<\/span> the<\/span> books<\/span> themselves,<\/span> or<\/span> they<\/span> weren\u2019t<\/span> using<\/span> the<\/span> books<\/span> at<\/span> all. \u00a0I<\/span>t<\/span> seems<\/span> that<\/span> the<\/span>\u00a0GSU\u00a0<\/span>\u00a0assignments<\/span> were<\/span> not<\/span> the<\/span> norm,<\/span> but<\/span> rather<\/span> the<\/span> exception<\/span> and<\/span> therefore<\/span> don\u2019t<\/span> make<\/span> good<\/span> policy<\/span> out<\/span> of<\/span> that<\/span> kind<\/span> of<\/span> a<\/span> decision<\/span> on<\/span>\u00a0fair<\/span> use<\/span>.<\/span><\/p>\n

Those<\/span> are<\/span> my<\/span> two<\/span> cents<\/span> about<\/span> the<\/span> oral<\/span> arguments<\/span> from<\/span> this<\/span> case and\u00a0<\/span> I\u2019m<\/span> really<\/span> curious<\/span> to<\/span> see<\/span> if<\/span> you<\/span> agree<\/span> or<\/span> if<\/span> there\u2019s<\/span> any<\/span> other<\/span> kind<\/span> of<\/span> discussion<\/span> that<\/span> we<\/span> should<\/span> engage<\/span> in.<\/span><\/p>\n

Feel<\/span> free<\/span> to<\/span> send<\/span> me<\/span> an<\/span> email at srbenson@illinois.edu to<\/span> let<\/span> me<\/span> know your thoughts and<\/span>\u00a0thanks<\/span> for<\/span> listening<\/span>.<\/span><\/p>\n

Music credit<\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"You are tuned in to copyright chat. Copyright chat is a podcast dedicated to discussing important copyright matters. Host Sara Benson the copyright librarian from the University of Illinois converses with experts from across the globe to engage the public with rights issues relevant to their daily lives. Transcript: Welcome to copyright chat.\u00a0Today I actually […]","protected":false},"author":83,"featured_media":0,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"http:\/\/flash.atlas.illinois.edu\/media\/lib\/CopyrightChatPodcast\/CopyrightChatPodcast_GSU.mp3","podmotor_file_id":"","podmotor_episode_id":"","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"","filesize":"9.17M","filesize_raw":"","date_recorded":"2024-02-07 23:42:53","explicit":"","block":""},"tags":[],"series":[11],"class_list":["post-274","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","hentry","series-copyright-chat"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":false,"episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wordpress.library.illinois.edu\/scholarlycommunications\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/98\/2024\/02\/chat_orange_1400.png","download_link":"https:\/\/wordpress.library.illinois.edu\/scholarlycommunications\/podcast-download\/274\/sara-bensons-take-on-gsu-copyright-case.mp3","player_link":"https:\/\/wordpress.library.illinois.edu\/scholarlycommunications\/podcast-player\/274\/sara-bensons-take-on-gsu-copyright-case.mp3","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"dark","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"stitcher":{"key":"stitcher","url":"","label":"Stitcher","class":"stitcher","icon":"stitcher.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wordpress.library.illinois.edu\/scholarlycommunications\/feed\/podcast\/copyright-chat","embedCode":"

Sara Benson\u2019s Take on GSU Copyright Case<\/a><\/blockquote>